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thegunny
Posts: 4588
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 15:02
Japanese numbered in the thousands and continued for over three years after WWII victory was declared.
It took the US over four months to clear away the twin tower debris, let alone attempt to build something else in its place. Now, take into account that almost every Democrat leader in the House and Senate has fought President Bush on every aspect of his handling of this country's war and the post-war reconstruction; and that they continue to claim on a daily basis on national TV that this conflict has been a failure.
Taking everything into consideration, even the unfortunate loss of our sons and daughters in this conflict, do you think anyone else in the world could have accomplished as much as the United States and the Bush administration in so short a period of time?
David Ray
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 15:08
Gunny,
You just made my day with that one! It's been a hell of a week and I really needed the booster shot in the arm!
Thanks for posting this!
LNV
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JQ
Posts: 823
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 15:35
Great post, Gunny -- It would really make my day if all that information were in general release on a regular basis; that it isn't should truly be an indictment of the press, print, broadcast and news media in general. What a screwed-up world when political ideologies can suppress such information from the public -- especially when an election is just around the corner. Thanks again for the post. JQ
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DocD
Posts: 1627
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 17:17
Stev, if you can put that information in an email and send it to me I'll see that it is sent out to 87 of my email friends, both leftwinger and the good guys so that they too can read "The good news that hasn't been fit to print."
Thanks for helping to put the truth in a better light, for all of us to see.
For a Jarhead, you're an alright guy.
DocD
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 17:36
Doc,
Check your email. I just sent you a copy.
Hugs,
LNV
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Blue290
Posts: 370
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 17:36
Gunny,
Thanks for something positive for a change.
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The_Mariner
Posts: 196
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 17:46
Good one Gunny
Mariner
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PT
Posts: 3193
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 18:00
Gunny,
Thanks for the ammo. Great post. I sure as heck never knew that about the thousands of post WWII casualties after 5/45 and 9/45, really puts things in perspective.
...things the NY Times and Brokaw won't tell us.
Scouts out~~
Semper Fi.
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bill_oaverage
Posts: 113
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 18:10
Just playing devils advocate.
Do these figures justify the 'well being' of a far off land?
http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx
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numbah_oneGI
Posts: 975
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 20:17
This is just too good to keep under wraps any longer, and it's a shame more people don't know about all this.
This is the best news I've heard in a long time.
Numbah_oneGI
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bill_oaverage
Posts: 113
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 20:37
Is it relevant we compare this situation to events over 50 years ago? One hopes we have advanced, considerably.
The underlying question is. How long can Coalition forces accept daily losses?
It is good news that Iraq is 'recovering'.
At what number of allied losses will this become a 'I don't give a fcuk'?
Btw, if you think I'm some kind of pinko anti war type, please read my profile, thanks.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 20:44
Bill,
We all know that freedom comes with a price. Unfortunately the price is in the forms of lives.
Would you rather that the likes of Hitler, Saddam and others like them be permitted to continue with their killing, etc.
If I recall my history correctly, Hitler had a pretty good hard-on for England and did everything he could to wipe it off the planet. Should we not have sent our troops to defend your country?
LNV
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bill_oaverage
Posts: 113
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 20:57
Hald on there!
We are talking of very different situations. Although to the reader, it fits in very well. Don't een get me started on the US defence of UK during WWII.
Having spend quite a bit of time sucking sand out of my kit in previous shindigs, I dont think we, as a coalition had the 'PR' right on this one.
As I alluded to in my previous post. 50 years have gone by and I dont feel any comparison can be made.
You mention freedom LNV. Would that be the same freedom that your average Afghani feels he has? A bench mark in the current situation, you understand.
Does anyone have the figures concerning the profit being made from the rebuild by Western corporations to hand? Your average Iraqi has one thing in his mind. 'Am I better off'?
One answer might be 'Well at least I'm not being oppressed by the dictatorship that was Saddam'
Another might be 'Why the fcuk is a western nation telling me where and when I can go and why is that collection of nations treating my fellow Iraqis like a bunch of third world inbreds?'
BTW, for those members on here who will jerk at the choker to try and shoot me down, do some time in theatre before, rather than listen to NBC/CNN/ABC, you come to an opinion.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 21:01
Bill,
Gathering from the letters that I get from the Sandbox, our guys are very proud of the job they are doing over there.
And, Freedom is ageless, so the comparison between now and 50 years ago is valid.
:o)
LNV
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bill_oaverage
Posts: 113
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 21:08
I too would agree with the grunt on the ground.
I take a differing opinion to the comparison to 50 years ago though.
Freedom is one thing.
Should we free all those in the world, that in our opinion, are deemed to be oppressed? And at what cost to our own people?
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 21:11
Bill,
When we fight in foreign countries, we keep the bloodshed there and not on our own ground.
Saddass had plenty of opportunity to avoid this, he choose the path.
:o)
LNV
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bill_oaverage
Posts: 113
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 21:29
Be careful LNV. Bloodshed there happens to be GI's. We did take the fight to him. Can we (as a coalition) continue to accept the cas each month and if so, for how long?
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 21:33
Bill,
I know that the price is the lives of our GI's. Everytime I send a letter, or care package, I wonder if it will actually get to the one it's addressed to, or will they be dead by the time the mail gets there?
As for how long, I cannot answer that, I don't think there is a time line for freedom, do you?
:o)
LNV
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bill_oaverage
Posts: 113
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Posted - 12/5/2003 : 21:47
Nope.
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 12:36
It would have been a fantastic opportunity to make Gunnies post as a list of targets to be achieved prior to the invasion, nobody would have objected to the invasion.
LNV, after this post from Gunny, are you now glad that we never used MOABs and Nukes? or do you still think the sandpit should be turned into glass?
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 12:39
Leonard,
Yes, I still think the sandbox should be turned into glass.
I commend our troops for a job well done, but I have no love for muslims or islam.
If I had my way about it, we wouldn't have bothered to send troops at all: Just drop bombs on all of them and be done with it.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 12:46
Thank christ we are not draconian neanderthals. Any other religions creeds and races you would like wiping off the place of the planet.
OBL doesn't like the western way of life and seems intent on doing something about it, can he be compared to you but perhaps he deserves credit for having the balls to do something about his views.
Do you like the thought of dropping Bombs on civilian populations? does the thought of muslim children being nuked in thier sleep fill you with a feeling of goodness?
Thier are nigh on 1 billion Muslims on this planet, and in your opinion they should all die?
Hitler didn't like the Jewish race and wanted them all dead...
Sigh.. Thank god the jargon delete button is the only red button you have access to!
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 13:09
Leonard,
Sorry, but until you can show me something good about muslims, my feelings stay the same.
Could care less about any of them, civilian or otherwise.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 15:31
Maybe your right, perhaps all 1 billion of them should be wiped out.
Not a single one of them is worth the air they breath????
Are you serious or posting like a genocide mad loon for a reason.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 15:39
Leonard,
I am very serious. Look at just who is doing all the terrorism today. It's not Christians, it's muslims/islamics. They use their own religion to promote hatred and evil.
There isn't a third world country out there that isn't of muslim/islamic faith. The muslim/islamic faith keeps it's people oppressed, locked in the ancient history and beaten down.
I hate it and everything it stands for.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 15:50
LNV wrote
Look at just who is doing all the terrorism today
IRA, ETA, Red Army faction
Clearly there are no Christian or Hindi terror outfits, as if there were to be maybe they should be wiped out as a race too.
By your reckoning, with Mcveigh being and American ex military Christian, Are you suggesting Nuking the US.
For someone who is an authority on world travel, youare a mile out with that claim about third world countries, but lets wipe em out anyway????
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 15:55
Leonard,
1. McVeigh was a traitor and a murderer who deserved to die far more horribly than lethal injection.
2. When did I ever claim to be an authority on World Travel? Just because I have no desire to visit other countries doesn't make me an authority on travel.
You still haven't convinced me that muslims/islamics are worth anything.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:02
LNV Im not going to even try, my quip about you being an authority on world travel was one of sarcasm.
You have never stepped foot outside the US but you are happy to wipe out an entire race creed and religion because you don't like them.
To try and convince you would be a waste of time. I'll let you live in your ideal world of genocide where you can dream of nuking and eradicating innocent children and families, subject them to nuclear carnage and will try and not burst your bubble, a bubble similar to a chap called Hitler.
You say Mveigh was a traitor and a Murderer, but not a terrorist.
How about the 4000 muslims that serve in the US armed forces, do you strip them of thier uniforms before nuking them or let them die draped in the flag they swear to defend.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:09
Leonard,
As far as I am concerned, muslims serving in our military should be thrown out of our military.
Show me just ONE good thing about muslims/islamics please. Just ONE.
If you want to be a global traveler, that's up to you. Just because I have no desire to leave my own country is no reason to sneer at me or put me down. Besides, have you checked into the cost of traveling outside the USA? It ain't cheap, and I ain't wealthy.
Also, I don't have the luxury of having someone available to travel with me unless I pay not only my way, but theirs as well. So, for me to travel at all, I have to pay double expenses out of my own pocket. Therefore, if I am going to travel, I will be traveling alone and there ain't no way in hell you will get me out of this country under those circumstances. Not with the way women are treated by other countries.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:16
ONE GOOD THING?
Are you really serious, tell me you are not?
I suppose a Muslim mother raising a child and schooling him/her is deemed a bad deed. A deed fro which they deserved to die.
What do you want from me, Muslim Nobel Prize winners,
I struggle to determine what you could mean.
When you send your alledged care packages to the Middle East, do lable them clearly that they are not for any Muslim that swore an allegiance to the US military, and purely for an approved religion that conforms with your views.
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:19
If Ctauch or Bean told you they were Muslim would want to get rid of them off jargon?
Your rantings about Free Iraq are really a front because what you really want is a Non existanct Iraq and to cleanse the world of 1 billion people, basically a quarter of the planets population.
You called the doctor?
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:23
Leonard,
You still haven't answered the question:
Please show me ONE good thing about Muslims/Islamics, just one.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:28
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/11/1065676202658.html?from=storyrhs
Theres one.
Do they still need to die or did this one man save the lives of the other 999,999,999 folk?
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:33
Whilst we are in an answering mood, you didn't respond to this
When you send your alledged care packages to the Middle East, do lable them clearly that they are not for any Muslim that swore an allegiance to the US military, and purely for an approved religion that conforms with your views.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:34
Leonard,
So one of them won the Nobel prize. Big whoopie.
I still hate muslims. You still have not given me any reason to love even one of them.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:43
You odd person,
You asked me for one good reason, I gave it you, yet it still isn't good enough.
Do you support the Nazi party? Are you a member of the KKK they hold similar extreme views.
Have a look at the BNP website. You will be right at home there.
And what is it you have done for world peace, whats your reason for being alive, how do you help the world spin?
I note that you still refuse to answer my questions, although I really should be used to that by now huh?
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:47
I find it utterly amazing how one person can dismiss a quarter of the planet with ignorant, ill founded, niaive and outrageous views, you are as extreme as the people and groups that you claim to hate
I take it you live in a community surrounded by white people, with zero tolerance, Do you feel the same way about Hindu's and Buddists, Catholics and Jews? or just the Muslims.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:48
Leonard,
My theme song.
http://www.poofcat.com/iraq2.html
I may support freedom for Iraq, but that doesn't mean that I hold any love for them as muslims/islamics.
I know what I can control and what I can't. But, that doesn't stop me from acknowledging my emotions/feelings.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 16:57
LNV wrote
I may support freedom for Iraq
LNV wrote
Could care less about any of them, civilian or otherwise.
Confused now....
LNV wrote
Look at just who is doing all the terrorism today. It's not Christians, it's muslims/islamics.
LNV wrote
Yes, I still think the sandbox should be turned into glass
Oh, and you still haven't answered my question, again... I was good enough to answer yours.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 17:01
Leonard,
Please tell of anyone time that you haven't been totally confused???
:)~
LNV
*Gawd, I love pulling your chain! You fall for it so easy!!!!
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 17:03
An apt Theme tune for you... Korea isn't Muslim though, or are they a new breed on your list for extermination.
The song lays claim to saving Germany and frances Butts in WW2.... I'm sure the Germans are grateful for that one???? I recal them being the enemy... Maybe my history is wrong. I think that song was perhaps written by an ill informed student prick sat at hoem polishing his ruger and forming opinions on things he has no clue about.
He says Saddam Gassed the Kurds, yes he did, but LNV wants to slot a quarter of the planet, who is worse?
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 17:06
LNV thats the easy way out.
You show no difference between last weeks posting sand tonights, but I guess you were pulling my leg then???
At least have the guts to stand up for your views, don't hide them and back pedal when you are on the back foot. All respect will dwindle then.
I'm glad you find the subject of Genocide, racism, and Terrorism funny. I'll Email you some pics of vitims of terror, see how much you laugh then.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 17:09
Leonard,
Wanna know what I love about you the most?
You're not only easy, but you can definately be had!
:)~
LNV
*You really should learn about cognitive distortions, I've been laying a shitload of them on you, just to get a rise!
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 17:15
Sorry LNV I don't believe you.
I think you back pedalling and are embarrassed after reading back through your posts.
If there was a definate change in your posting style or reasoning behind your extreme posts.. I don't see it.
I can be had and am the first to be able to laugh at myself I have shown that in the past.... But I most certainly haven't been had on this.. At least have courage in your convictions and standby your beliefs, no matter how extreme they are, otherwise it shows you as gutless and easily led
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 17:19
Leonard,
Believe what you will. I am not embarrassed by anything and I am not back pedalling on anything.
However, I do firmly believe that the muslim/islamic faith is the most oppressive in the world and for that alone I hate it.
As for the rest, like I said, you really should learn about cognitive distortions...
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 17:23
LNV wrote
However, I do firmly believe that the muslim/islamic faith is the most oppressive in the world and for that alone I hate it.
If that was mixed up within the part which was alledgedly a joke how was anyone meant to tell the difference between stable and unstable.
I have posted a link to your cognitive distortions I feel you could learn something.
http://www.uwec.edu/counsel/pubs/defn.htm
It may help you in not coming across as as a racist fanatic.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 17:28
Leonard,
Very nice link to Coginitive Distortions. Would you like a few more, complete with rational responses? :o)
Make you a deal, you stop coming across like a sexist pig, and I will stop coming across like a racist fanatic.
:o)
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 18:12
Since when did a the odd sexist line affect the life and stability of a quarter of the planet.
Anyone on here who knows me and is worthy of anyones time knows that when I crack a line about sexism etc etc than it is merely meant as a joke, nothing more. I have never said woman should be wiped out and nuked, nor have I said I hate them.
If I am deemed and viewed as a sexist pig, fine rather that than a racist fanatic....
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 18:17
Leonard,
I am gonna let you and everyone else here on a very little known secret of mine:
Every month when I send out care packages, I also send packages of nothing but clothing and stuffed toys for the orphaned children in Iraq.
So far I have probably spent over $3000 on clothing and toys alone, not counting the postage to mail them.
Then, there's Operation PencilBox that I contribute to regularily. I send them boxes of school supplies to give to Iraqi school children.
Now, I ask you, does that sound like someone who is a racist fanatic to you?
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 18:23
No that doesn't
LNV wrote
If I had my way about it, we wouldn't have bothered to send troops at all: Just drop bombs on all of them and be done with it.
But that along woth three dozen other posts do!
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 18:28
Leonard,
There is a big difference of what I would "like" to do and what is the "right" thing to do or that it's feasible.
For example: I'd LIKE to rip my rapist limb from limb. But, I know that it's not possible or feasible. (He's dead....)
I just like posting that stuff because I know I get a rise out of you. You really go crazy with it.
Do you understand now?
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 18:35
If I look back you wrote simialr long before I joined the board, I also noticed that the statement was made also to Bill O average when I have been mainly absent fromt he boards for nearly a week.
I don't go crazy, merely irate at some of the narrow minded views that people have, I feel it almost a duty to make them look foolish.
People with zero experience make sweeping comments etc..
My old man gave me some advice 'Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mockasons' (A little different to Ctauchs fathers advice 'Dont sleep with a man until you've had ten pints of Mackesons, unless you really like him) :-)
I would never dream of commenting on a persons way of life or religion unless I was reasonably informed or had visited the country and understood thier way of life
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 18:45
Leonard,
With today's technology, one really doesn't need to travel to another land to understand a way of life.
I can get all the information I need by visiting the websites of places like the United Nations, or watching documentaries on the Discovery Channel or the Travel Channel.
I have also seen you make sweeping statements, thus my reason for pulling your chain on this matter. Aren't you the one who keeps going off about the body count of the troops KIA of the coalition? Yet, just the mention of dropping a bomb and be done with the matter, thus saving lives of the coalition troops, and you take a different approach.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 19:02
You completely misunderstand me. My reasons for being angry for troops killed in action aren't anything to to with the job they do its the reasons they believe they deployed and died. If they knew that the achievements made in the original post were the motives for deployment they would remain motivated and focussed and perhaps Blair would have a little more support.
I am totally behind Gunnies post and if true fantastic, why not reread my original post on this subject.
I have never said that I would sooner drop bombs on civilians to save Allied lives. if I make a sweeping statement it is on the subject of something like the Jackson trial, never would I make a sweeping statement invoving the eradication and extermination of an entire religion or race. ESPECIALLY if I was claiming to send out care packages.
So while you were joking, please tell us real views on the 4000 Muslims in service with the US armed forces.
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 20:48
I guess this one goes unanswered too.....
Theres a shock
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Grizzly
Posts: 2556
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 21:46
You have serious problems lnv
First of all many 3rd world countries are not Muslim.
Look in Central/South America and Africa.
If it wasnt for Islam, the west wouldnt have anything from the Greek/Roman times because the Christians and pagans of the Dark Ages destroyed everything.
Christians have done far worst acts then any Muslim.
This is not a good sign for this site, having someone with so much hate as a moderator.
So you think the acts of a few muslims extreamist should equal the murder of all of them? What about the racist, hate spreading so called Christian organizations?
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 21:50
Grizzly, at last a chap with some common sense...
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 23:10
Grizzly,
Whom I hate or love has no bearing on my position as a moderator. Show me where it is written that a moderator has to love everyone in the world.
I don't like muslims/islamics due to their oppression of women. But, since you don't have a clue as to what it's like to be a woman and the fact that you are extremely young, I don't give your post much credence.
LNV
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Grizzly
Posts: 2556
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 23:14
Then why do you put everyone who follows Islam into one basket?
Many Asian cultures treat women as second class citizens but I do not see you advocating nuking China.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 23:25
Grizzly,
I would LOVE TO NUKE CHINA!!! And, so would countless other Americans.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 23:47
Muslims being 1 billion and 1.2 billion chinese now...
thats half the world.
LNV are you completely f**king warped? Grizzly may well be young but her is clearly educated and seemingly normal,
Please do me a small favour, answer my question about the Muslims in the US forces, I keep asking politley.
I can only thank Christ again that the only authority you exude and the only button you have access to is the Jargon Delete key.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/6/2003 : 23:58
Leonard,
I am no more warped than you are.
Sorry about not responding to your question about the muslims in the military. Answer: so long as they serve honorably, I have no problem with it.
Just don't ask me to make kissy face with them or like them send them care packages or anything else.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 00:06
So you determine on the packaging on your care packages, not for US Muslim troops?
So Muslims are ok so long as they serve the US?
What about thier families, are they tolerated by you?
LNV if I had views such as yours I would find the off switch to my computer and get out sniff some air and take in the real world.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 00:10
Leonard,
The care packages that I send out go to the sons of friends of mine. All of them are Christian families.
And, here in Medford, Oregon, there are no muslims at all.
And, I never said that muslims were "ok". I said as long as they serve honorably, I have no problem with it.
Oh, this computer gets turned off nightly, so don't worry. I get plenty of fresh air...especially since I am a smoker and smoke out on my patio...:o)
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 00:20
OK so the Muslims who are prepared to die for your country and swear allegiance to your flag can f**k off and go without then?
LNV wrote
So far I have probably spent over $3000 on clothing and toys alone, not counting the postage to mail them
Thats a hell of a lot of friends sons.
I am pleased for you that you have found a place free from the Muslim filth you seemingly hate so much. Are all the young boys blonde haired and blue eyed, just how Hitler liked them?
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 00:26
Leonard,
I send out an average of 20-40 care packages a month. Some small some large. I only send to those whose families that I am aquainted with.
As for Medford, no it's not all blue-eyed blondes. We just don't have a muslim population here, at least not that is of any signifigance. It's a very small town, less than 125K in the entire county. Places of worship here are many and mostly Christian based. If it wasn't for the fact that the cost of living here is so low and that my family is mostly here, I'd be living in Hawaii right now.
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 00:35
So its fair to say that you have no contact with Muslims and haven't had. ALL your hatred for them has come from the News and from the internet.
Yet you would still see them all gone.
Are there any Chinese in Medford, what have they doen to deserve annihilation?
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 00:38
Leonard,
I never said I haven't had contact with muslims. I have only lived here in Medford since July of this year.
Before that, Stockton CA for 10 months, prior to that San Francisco for three years, and before that: Red Bluff, California, Home of the Red Bluff Round-Up!!!
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 00:40
and because of that the world would be better without them??????
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 00:46
Leonard,
As I stated before: Muslim/Islamic religion is the most oppressive that I know of.
Keeps it's believers oppressed and in the dark ages. Yes, I think the world would be a better place without muslims/islamics.
The world would also be a better place if abortionists dropped off the planet as well....
Hmmmm, Bush administration is considering establishing a base on the moon.....maybe we could....????
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 00:49
What about Abortions amongst Muslim women? Save on your munitions, allow them to slaughter thier own young.
Maybe the world would be a better place without people who can right off 2 billion peaple with the sweep of a pen and the click of a mouse on an ill informed website
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 00:51
Leonard,
Actually, I think we can forget about dropping nukes...
Have been thinking...SEND THEM ALL TO THE MOON!
:O)
LNV
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 07:59
guess I missed another irrational diatribe of nuke and kill the ragheads...
LNV, your position on muslims is distrubing...but I have to remind myself "opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one and some of them stink"
I do not hold muslims near and dear, partly out of ignorance, but mostly out of fear...I do give them the benefit of the doubt but keep a watchful eye on them. I do not advocate indiscriminate violence against them.
Yes I have stated on occassion that I wish we would have turned Iraq into a glass parking lot, but that statement was neither rational nor meant in all seriousness. But your inflammetory statements have been constant and contradictory. I don't think leonard is the only one confused over your attitude and position towards arabs...and now more recently chinese.
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meerkat
Posts: 319
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 09:25
I missed it too....
Call me old-fahsioned but when someone posts a load of extremely vicious opinions on a group of people they know nothing about from real life and then starts posting halfway down the page thsat actually it was all just a big wind-up, it really doesn't ring true.
For those of us who were not involved in the heat of the moment on this one and have come in and read it all in one go, it only reads one way.
Sorry LNV you don't come over too well in this thread. I am only glad to see Grizzly and Ctauch don't follow your wild irrational opinions - I suspect the rest reading this thread are too embarassed by you to come to your defence.
Meerkat
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 10:22
Who on earth is going to defend and opinion that would be happy to see half the globes population vapourized.
Not even Mad Morris Mcmad from Maddsville is going to dive in to back that one.
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meerkat
Posts: 319
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 10:32
Leonard
Yep not even Mad Morris. I just wondered why so few others have posted on this thread?
Embarassment for LNV or just all away for the w/e? we'll find out on Monday......
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scwriter
Posts: 529
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 13:58
I just read this thread now, and I am embarrassed for her. Contradictions? This woman has supported Bush's policies, has argued that this war was necessary to free these people from Saddam. Now this? I think LNV should take a vacation from the boards for awhile.
To claim it was a joke, and put it on cognitive distortion was a lame attempt at saving face.
I'm sorry for whatever LNV went through in her personal life, but just because she's a woman, and woman are oppressed in particular parts of the world, doesn't make nuking them all sane, or right.
I wonder why more haven't posted on this thread.
Leonard, I assume we have largely different views on most things, but I respect your views on civility towards innocent human beings of any culture.
Scwriter
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 14:17
Scwriter, we probably do differ on many things and I wouldn't hesitate in picking up a rifle and travelling to the Middle east to work along side old friends if called.
What I ask for is to be told the reasons I am required to go and fight and risk my life, and not told lies.
Gunnies post gave over 50 good reasons to enter Iraq and rid the world of Saddams regime. Just a shame that there were other issues that took precidence.
What I don't accept is that another man should die at the hands of another without good reason, and to say because they are a different race with different beliefs is both unacceptable and downright disgraceful.
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 15:31
holy good gawd syhte ... scwriter, leonard and I all agree on something....it must be a really cold day in hell.... Satan has blue balls today and it ain't from gettin' none.
Maybe there is a chance for humanity ;-)
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scwriter
Posts: 529
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 15:46
Leonard,
I agree wholeheartedly. By the way, if I had felt from the beginning that the truth was being told to the American people about why we were going to Iraq, I may have supported it. Don't know for sure. I feel that we were lied to, and misled, into believing things that weren't really true. We know now that many of the supposed reasons for war were either bad evidence, or possibly outright lies. To rid the world of a tyrant may've received my blessing, but the lies make me think there were other motives behind the war.
Ctauch
It scares me to.
Scwriter
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Grunt#1
Posts: 746
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 19:25
Very disturbing LNV. I have my reservations about certain countries but, that is with their government's policies. Not with their population as a whole nor, with their religion.
Remember what our country was founded on.
To glibbly advocate the destruction of 2 billion men, women and children is just nuts. Seek help.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 19:32
Grunt,
Remember me? The one in recovery with PTSD??
The Muslim/Islamic religion is oppressive and especially to it's women. As far as I am concerned it's a religion that should go the same way as the Ancient Aztec's.
LNV
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Grizzly
Posts: 2556
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 19:43
The religeon isnt oppressive, it is the specific version being preached in some middle east countries.
Look at Indonesia. The worlds largest democracy and they have a woman as the President. And if you dont know they are also the country with the most Muslims.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 19:49
Grizzly,
Feel free to provide links. Goodness knows that I have provided tons of links about the oppressiveness of the Muslims.
LNV
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 20:26
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/id.html#Intro
CIA facts....good site for facts.
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 20:28
sorry I'm not grizzly but I posted a link ;-)
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 20:35
Ctauch,
Thanks, hon! Isn't Indonesia also under terrorist attacks due to their "western" ties/practices?
LNV
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 20:48
Hmmmm....
Seems that Indonesia has only had a woman president since 2001 and the changes have only started since she came into office. That's only two years ago.
From the site Ctauch provided:
"Indonesia is the world's largest archipelago; it achieved independence from the Netherlands in 1949. Current issues include: alleviating widespread poverty, implementing IMF-mandated reforms of the banking sector, effecting a transition to a popularly-elected government after four decades of authoritarianism, addressing charges of cronyism and corruption, holding the military and police accountable for human rights violations, and resolving growing separatist pressures in Aceh and Papua
President MEGAWATI Sukarnoputri (since 23 July 2001) and Vice President Hamzah HAZ (since 26 July 2001); note - the president is both the chief of state and head of government "
LNV
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 20:53
They have been cracking down on militant elements...they are a very progressive muslim nation that has a terrorist group Jemaah Islamiyah determined to undermine the current government.
Jemaah Islamiyah is deemed to be responsible for the attacks in Bali and Jakarta.
It is an Islamic nation ruled by a woman...Pakistan was ruled by a woman as well Benazir Bhutto
First Female Prime Minister of Pakistan
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 20:57
Ctauch,
I stand corrected. However, it appears that this all of this change is only in very recent years, though, and by going against what has been traditional to Islam.
Am I wrong?
LNV
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 21:19
LNV,
name me the first female president of the US or for that matter the first black president (bill clinton not included for reasons of a skin condition...he was namely WHITE)
look, you have lashed out against the arabs and yet they have a better track record of getting women in to high office than the US.
LNV worte:
However, it appears that this all of this change is only in very recent years, though, and by going against what has been traditional to Islam.
It doesn't matter because they are trying to making a change...just like we are trying to fight a war on terror. Condeming and wanting to distroy an entire religion for the misguided actions of a few is wrong.
....BTW even the brits have one up on us...PM Thatcher...and I would have loved someone like here to be my President;-)....was also hoping Liddy Dole would have stuck around a little longer, maybe Katherine Harris will make a run for it some day.
Either way the US is behind on the world stage of female leaders and the muslims are ahead...should make you think.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 21:53
Ctauch,
Don't get me started on the issue of a Woman in the White House!!!
Besides, when I was speaking of oppression, having women as the leaders of a nation was not what I was talking about.
But, you've made excellent points and I stand corrected.
LNV
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 22:09
LNV,
but think about it...how can you say that a population of people [muslims in this case] are oppressing women when the have women leading them?
For a woman to be elected in a women oppressive religion/regime, makes the military intelligence no longer be an oxymoron...and that can't happen because it defies all common sense
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Helen
Posts: 186
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 22:19
I think that there is a HUGE problem with the inability to distinguish between the religion, and people involved in it.
I'd love to see Islam modified if not irradicated.
Before anyone starts foaming at the mouth, notice the word "ISLAM" not muslims, not men, women and children, ISLAM.
ISLAM is nasty self-perpetuating cult (technical definition as well as personal opinion), system of thought, religion or the only way to live you bastard infidels, you, depending on one's POV.
MUSLIMS are people. Could be Arabs, Persians, maybe, maybe not. Lots of Italians are Catholic, but it's not a requirement. While the downfall of the cult would be a good thing, the treatment of human beings is something else entirely. AND harming innocent civilians is wrong.
ARABS may be muslims, may not.
Reading arabic is not required to comment on Islam. Or even to join.
I keep seeing these terms used interchangably, and then wonder at the nastiness and confusion.
The board is loaded with barbs regarding everything but the battle of the Koom Valley. It isn't a debate, it's a brawl. And what happened to backing up assertations with information?
I hoped to make that shorter. Damn. OK fire away.
Helen
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 22:20
Ctauch,
Women have only just recently been leading them and the majority of their women are still extremely oppressed. Can you deny that fact?
LNV
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 22:38
how can the majority be oppressed and yet they [women]be elected?
That statement makes no sense. A majority of something must elect the women...or is it minority rule in which case they can't be oppressed.
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 22:47
Helen,
you are right to an extent...
Muslims are followers of Islam...Islam is a religion...arabs are a people.
check webster if you like.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 22:48
Ctauch,
You have shown me two countries only. There are many more muslim countries out there that do not have women leaders and their women are still oppressed. In some cases, allowing their women to be educated is a capitol offense punishable by death.
LNV
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 22:54
LNV,
and the US had slavary and lynched black people up till the the first half of 20th century...and the Dems want democracy yesterday in Iraq...
The bottom line is; I have shown you 2 countries that are Islamic that have progressed...
Your statements of eradicating an entire religion are extreme.
Have to discuss this further in the AM it is mid-night on my coast...good night.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/7/2003 : 23:04
Ctauch,
If you recall, I also stated that I stood corrected in my presumption.
Seeya in the morning.
LNV
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Helen
Posts: 186
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 01:03
ctach,
To what extent? Is there anything you disagree with? Can disprove? Wish to debate?
Look it up in your Funk & Wagonalls,
Helen
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 01:47
So LNV are you putting a timescale on them conforming and changing possibly the oldest religion on the planet?
The US have yet to have a female president and as Ctauch said in comparitive recency only aboloshed slavery... Do we give them a similar time frame to elect women leaders?....
So because a state that punishes women by death and are deemed primitive... we should punish them by death?
Take a look at what a man has to do to be also punished in the same way.
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bill_oaverage
Posts: 113
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 04:38
Feck me! It's all gone 'Pete Tong'!!
Good to see LNV has managed to accomplish a reasoned and rational debate!.
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 05:36
Helen,
to the extent that you failed to qualify that Muslims are not only people but more specifically followers of Islam in your statment above.
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thegunny
Posts: 4588
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 08:15
Hmmmm, I see that in my absense, this post turned into yet another slugfest.
I
really
shoulda
known
better.
A large part of me wants to delete the entire thread. Perhaps after a cuppa joe, I'll feel different?
The Gunny
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 08:32
Why delete it gunny? This has been interresting and revealing to say the least.
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thegunny
Posts: 4588
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 09:23
OK. I'm better now. That first cup was damn good. Amazing how caffine and baily's work in conjunction!
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weatherman1956
Posts: 2486
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 10:26
WAR IS HELL (of course)
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bubblehead
Posts: 464
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 11:51
Sad, very sad. The ignorance about Islam staggers me.
I mean, what do you people really know unless you live amongst its people and read their literature?
Actually, Arabic is the 'official' language of Islam. It can be translated, but it isn't the same thing.
Islam doesn't advocate violence against the innocent. That's what terrorists do?
Remember the Crusades? It was all about the slaughter of muslims (infidels, heathens) because of their belief in Islam.
There are US born, caucasian believers of Islam. You know, that freedom of religion thing. Do they need to leave the US.
Oppression of woman is largly extremists and isn't completely Islamic in it's outlook. Most of it is cultural. Look at the Saudis - women can't drive there, but can in Bahrain. Both are Sunni governments.
Islam can be construed as somewhat highminded, certainly were Christianity is concerned, but read about the five pillars of Islam and you'll understand better.
Terrorists are not necessarily rational by our standards. The IRA (correct me if I'm wrong) as I understand it, were professing to be Catholic, but also embraced communism, which calls for the abolishment of religion.
Just because you don't agree with another culture or religion doesn't give you the right to eradicate it.
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thegunny
Posts: 4588
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 11:59
Well said.
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LadyNavyVet
Posts: 11564
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 12:13
Thank you, Guys!
I stand corrected and most humbly apologize!
:o)
LNV
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leonardnimoy
Posts: 1863
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 12:21
Well said Bubblehead
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ctauch
Posts: 1271
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 12:33
Nice way to wrap it up bubblehead
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Helen
Posts: 186
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 12:50
The ignorance about Islam astounds me too.
What do you people really know unless you live amongst its people and read their literature?
Er, the folks they've killed may have had an inkling...
And with that criteria, I am supremely qualified to comment.
Islam DOES advocate violence to the "innocent"
Oppression of woman is largly intitutuionalized and is completely Islamic in it's outlook.
Remember the Crusades? When Islam went all the way to Spain?
Islam can not be construed as somewhat highminded, certainly where Judiasm and Christianity are concerned, but read the Hadif and you'll understand better.
Have you all lost your freakin' minds?
Helen
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thegunny
Posts: 4588
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Posted - 12/8/2003 : 13:10
Helen, in short...no. My mind is completely intact. The common theme posted in this thread was the advocating of eradicating entire Islamic nations based upon the actions of a minority group from within those nations. (Not what I intended when I made the initial posting!)
Granted, Islamic beliefs are pretty hard for us to understand, but then we've only recently even tried to delve into them. I can pretty much guarantee that prior to 9/11, none of us ever even gave a second thought about reading the Hadif, or the Koran. Myself, I never had the time or inclination.
We as a nation, are more than a little ignorant when it comes to understanding the Islamic people. One thing is evident, they all bleed red, just like us, even the innocent Muslims, and yes, they do exist.
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